Still on that cartoon, are we? I thought it was beginning to calm down, but no, the righteous outrage against Amp’s cartoon is still coming on strong from certain circles. Well, circle. Mandolin wrote a post titled “Mandolin Responds to Seelhoff: Gender Is a Constellation.”
Link located here
It’s very, very good. Very Good. Her post is concise, easy to read, and reaches the core of what she wants to say quite efficiently with plenty of examples listed. It’s one of the clearest pieces of writing I’ve seen that takes down gender essentialism. Her post starts off on Sally C’s comment from I Blame The Patriarchy;
“Knowing that someone is a woman does not tell me anything about her fate, but it does tell me she knows what I know about what it’s like to bleed.”
It runs the track from why that comment is essentialist (not to mention really fucking rude by basing someone on what their body does or does not do n’ leaving many people in a lurch, imho) to why ‘woman’ hasn’t (or can’t, personally, right now I’mma leaning toward can’t) be defined. Mandolin goes on to write such pretty snippets as;
The idea that biology bleeding creates women is part of an essentialist stance – a stance that is shared by many sectors of the religious right. It reduces my varied experiences to the fact of my blood or lack thereof: an inadequate measure.
I don’t know what defines woman. As commonly phrased, it is a boring and irrelevant question, as has been acknowledged. It is attempting to take a semantic concept — woman — and reify it in a way in which it can not be reified. The truth is that the concept woman is complicated. It is not binary, it is not either/or, it is not on/off.
When we add the concept of gender, the whole of it becomes even more complex.
Although, my absolute favorite part is this;
My external genitalia can tell you certain things about me. It indicates likelihoods and probabilities. It indicates that I am part of the class that is likely to undergo sexual abuse or harassment, although I have been fortunate enough to live most of my life free of these things. It indicates that I probably was urged toward the arts and social sciences, instead of the hard sciences. It indicates I was probably touched less often as an infant than my brothers were; it indicates that I am likely to be paid .76 on the dollar compared to men in my profession.
It indicates these likelihoods, but it does not make them fact. I am an individual. Some probabilities apply. Others do not.
I think, although I’m not sure, that it’s my favorite because it doesn’t lump a class of people as having to have a checklist where everything must be marked off in order to belong. So many people get squashed that way, and it isn’t like it doesn’t happen in casual conversation. This listing of womanly qualities creates a heirarchy that some people insist on ignoring, as long as it benefits them.
Oh yeah, that’s right. Heirarchies. Pesky little things, ain’t they.
Defining anyone but yourself, extending that process to defining groups you are part of and/or identify with ~ That way lies madness.
And, lo!
Seelhoff responded!
(To be fair, her trackback was already there for the picking, there wasn’t any hunting involved, I just snatched the most recent contribution Seelhoff aka Heart made to her blog.)
So, pardon me, but a critique is in order. I’ll be gentle.
Really.
Seelhoff’s responding post is titled “Seelhoff Responds to Alas’s Irrelevant “Response” to Seelhoff”
Link Located Here
So, from the get to, Mandolin’s response is considered irrelevent, and the word response is in scare quotes, as if it wasn’t a ‘real’ response and should not be considered as such.
Seelhoff starts out with
Mandolin, in all sincerity and good faith, what you have written on Alas, directing it towards me, has nothing to do with anything I believe, have said, or have thought, for that matter, here or anywhere else.
Sincerity and good faith do not the title of Seelhoff’s post make. NosireeeBob. Sincerity and good faith don’t seem to be anywhere near *that* title. Sincerity and good faith do not include scare quotes toward your respondant and calling their response ‘irrelevant’.
Now that we’re finally past the title…
My observation is, you consistently believe what people say about radical feminists and our views about transgender over at Alas and presumably, elsewhere.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but Mandolin’s Response consisted of what she saw some self-defined Radical Feminists saying and defending, that is, biological essentialism, ‘You are your body. No, really’.
And Seelhoff’s response to that is to…what, exactly? Well, she starts off with her observation that Mandolin believes whatever people tell her about radical feminism. She’s deliberately overlooking what Mandolin said some of her own experiences were. And anyone can have that experience, Sally C’s quote is just one of many, and they’re all public.
Next up,
Neither I nor anybody here is responsible for what Sally C on I Blame the Patriarchy might have said sometime about transgender issues. I have no idea who that is, where she might be coming from politically or ideologically, or anything else. She is (presumably) someone on IBTP, posting to IBTP, where I rarely read, and even more rarely post. Given recent events, anybody over there might have posted anything at all and called their position ”radical feminist”!
“..Anything else.” “Presumably?” It almost sounds as if Seelhoff has no idea what thread that was, no clue, no inkling, no possible whiff of the topic at all and the comments loaded throughout it.
Now, I do indeed remember that little blowup, although the title of the thread at IBTP escapes me. Something to do with lipstick, perhaps. I also remember one of Seelhoff’s comments sections talking about it, because I remember some deplorable comments her regular posters made referring that thread on her own blog in the same vein as that comment by Sally C. And she applauded, sent her love, all that, well, happy horseshit to comments from her regulars on her own blog. So if the types of comments and the sentiments of the comments are the same, we’re supposed to believe that somehow, they’re….still radically different? The mind boggles.
(Make sure to take note that “…anybody over there might have posted anything at all and called their position “Radical feminist”!)
Well, from her above quotation, I can (with relative safety) conclude that Seelhoff is not Sally C. But damn, those two seem to share similar views. No no, don’t take *my* word for it. Go check it out for yourself, she’s got plenty of transphobic posts and comments there.
Now, this little snippet I find very telling.
What these folks say about our views is wrong, pure and simple. Amp is wrong about our views, about my views, he always has been, for all the years I’ve interacted with him, going on seven years now.
Oh really? How….well, I was going to say quaint, but I find it more disturbing than anything. Here’s why.
She equates her views and ‘our’ views. A view is singular. ‘our’ is multiple. Very different, and not at all fair to define everyone elses views as one persons’ for someone to be ‘wrong about’.
The ego, it prevails!
He consistently makes references to, or argues with, positions I and other radical feminists do not hold as though we do hold them. I don’t know what that particular blind spot is about.
Now, this is the internet. One doesn’t get information by osmosis, especially in this medium. The idea is ludicrous. People read or listen to what others type, and they make judgments on the words therein. If someone say that MTF’s are men, than that is what people see/hear. When someone gives much applause and gives many X’s to Frankenstein comments and how trans people are a mockery. So I’d be interested where, exactly, the blind spot is supposed to be.
(I’m being incredibly generous here, a rather large chunk of her commenter’s statements are more along the lines of viscous bile wrt trans issues.)
I am, however, going to give Amp the (undeserved, because he has demonstrated himself to be untrustworthy and no ally to women) benefit of the doubt that so far as transgender issues go, he is incapable of comprehending what our viewpoint actually is and responding to what we actually say and write, for whatever reason He’s got some blind spot there. Any time I’ve observed him attempting to engage the issues, that blind spot is apparent front and center.
So…she’s willing to discount the women who do consider him an ally? Looks like it. It also looks like she’s conflating her opinion with all other radical feminists again. Then there’s some more of a blind spot that doesn’t seem to exist in reality, because you can only respond to what others actually type. Otherwise, you’d be lying. And of course the blind spot is apparent front and center, because from the long and involved thread that I’ve read at Seelhoff’s site, anyone who doesn’t agree has a blind spot. Again, don’t take *my* word for it, go check for yourself. Watch out for the comment editing, though. She’s got a rather heavy hand in that regard, from what I hear.
Now, onto a more important issue that’s getting insensitively swept under the rug.
You, Mandolin, start off with a long tirade about the fact that some women don’t bleed. This is supposed to be relevant to any of the issues around transgender precisely how?
But it *does*, oh, it does. I think it does on a few levels, actually, and I might write on one of them at a later date but for now, we’ll stick with the one Mandolin’s talking about. And ‘tirade’? I’d call it a legitimate grievance, myself.
I’m going to keep this sweet and simple.
The comment by Sally C and the a large chunk of the comments found on Seelhoff’s blog are of the same stripe. Said commenters constantly hold up the womb, the tribe that bleeds, the experiences of childbirth, et cetera and so forth as being representative of women.
News Flash.
They’re not representative of women, least of all all woman. The group is so large that no blanket examples can be made that everyone in the group experiences, and certainly not with regard to menarchy or having children. It makes me wonder if anyone has actually studied biology to get even a relatively loose grip on how those processes can differ (or not exist at all) between people, or that being capable of bearing children isn’t a good way to define woman.
Now, if it isn’t biology that defines woman, (Keep with me here!) than the biology of Mtf’s (as an example) don’t define them as Not Woman, either. Then there’s the rest of Mandolin’s post, which took into account socialization.
Seelhoff goes on to state that she blogged about the wrongful arrest of lgt (No bisexuals, I take it?) peaceful protesters at a christian college, they wanted to discuss things, the college had them arrested.
Let me be (no doubt not the first, and probably not the last) to point out that mentioning that trans people were part of the group being wrongfully arrested does not a supporter make.
She goes on to state that;
I’d like to see Amp applying himself similarly to the actual issues and confronting those who possess the power to subordinate and oppress.
Well, I’d like to see Seelhoff applying herself similarly to the actual issues and confronting those who possess the power to subordinate and oppress wrt trans people, since it seems she has such a vicious attitude towards transpeople and indeed, a type of power to silence and oppress.
Wait wait, everyone’s part of that, aren’t they? Oppression, I mean. One big tangled web of oppression and privilege. I doubt she’d want to take on such introspection that would be needed for that to happen, though ~ So few people do, because it hurts. I don’t see her becoming aware of what power and privilege she has over transpeople without such an introspection, though.
Then there’s a bit more about who the main oppressors are (slippery slope, that; if you only focus on Big Fish, all the niggling little bits of hatred and fear Littler Fish have get left and they fester while fighting the ‘bigger picture’. I was always more fond of perspective, anyway. All of ‘em can be shown, not just the worst of it.
I see Amp, and people with views like Amp, specifically targeting female persons: radical feminists, and more specifically, targeting lesbian separatists, a group with, for all intents and purposes, very little societal power, money, or influence.
I’ll not go into the level of paranoia there, others have pointed that out before.
The film she brings up as being targeted has the same types of views as other bigots, yes, those people who have little societal power, money or influence do have power over another group, particularly when their views coincide with society at large.
I see people who comment to Alas, and people like Amp, transgender people, lining up to applaud when a lesbian artist, who cannot manage to come up with $400 for a week at the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, where her own film is going to be shown, able to torpedo the showing of that film all over the country, ensuring her ongoing silencing (and impoverishment).
The film was called the Gendercator, and it was taken off the lineup because it was considered by some transpeople and others to be transphobic. She (the artist) isn’t and shouldn’t be entitled to get her film shown in a venue that claims to accept the people that the film stereotypes and are hurtful to the people the film portrays.
I see Amp and people like Amp lining up to applaud transgender persons bringing lawsuits against privately owned, respected, decades-old lesbian rape shelters with minuscule budgets for the most petty and specious reasons imaginable, tying lesbian separatist, radical feminist women up in litigation for years, by the time it’s all over, costing women hundreds of thousands of dollars which could have gone to the work of helping the victims of rape, and in some instances, closing down our struggling organizations.
I do believe I’ve blogged about this before.
I think it was in the month of May, I’ll hunt it up and link it later.
I see transgender persons forcing dyke musicians out of dyke marches. I see transgender persons denying the use of “GLBT” facilities to lesbians and radical feminists who are attempting to raise money to help poor women get to Michigan for a week of healing and encouragement.
I’m not sure what to say about the subsequent complaint, as I’m not familiar with either of those instances. I (very vaguely) remember something about a performance by Bitch being canceled or something like that, and I b’lieve it had something to do with her stance on something or other, possibly the music festival because it was decided she didn’t embody inclusion well enough. I know, I know. I did say my recollection was vague.
Seelhoff goes on to tell trans people (and everyone else) exactly whose boot is stepping on their (And by that, she also means mine) neck. Only one boot? How unimaginative. How droll.
And how very, very wrong.
Well now, I’ve some pertinent information in regards to footwear. There’s more than one boot of oppression. There’s even heels of oppression, sandals of oppression, sneakers of oppression…shoes of all kinds! They’re shared all the time, and everyone wears ‘em at different points, often through no choice of their own. Should she read this, “You’re stepping on my neck, Seelhoff, and that is most definitely a hobnailed boot you are wearing.”
It’s transgender persons and their supporters, barring the doors to, and causing ongoing, sometimes severe, difficulties for, the most marginalized group of female persons imaginable.
Imagine my surprise at the difficulty in trying to figure out how a group that isn’t really accepted in any part of society at the moment is responsible for causing severe difficulties for the most marginalized group. That is what was meant, right?
No offense, but it doesn’t make sense.
This isn’t the oppression olympics, no one is Most Marginalized. Some individuals have it worse than others, and different groups have different difficulties through interconnecting oppressions and hurdles to overcome.
Radical feminists, lesbian separatists do not have that kind of power and we never have.
Ahem. If anyone has a belief that agrees with someone who has power that is squashing another person under a boot, than they’ve got power as well, of a sort.
But no, we’ve got Amp busy drawing cartoons which compare radical feminists to fundies, har de har, what a novel approach. That is trite, that is old, that is irrelevant, that addresses none of the actual issues, it is a cheap shot which satisfies itself, again, with the tickle for a nickle.
It is not trite, it is not a cheap shot and it is most certainly not irrelevant. It is true, as Seelhoff’s blog (and other’s comments) can fully attest to. If only the opinion he drew was old and forgotten. I can dream.
~ The title is not meant to disparage radical feminists as a group, I’m using it tongue-in-cheek to illustrate that such transphobic radical feminists do indeed exist, despite their own claims to the contrary. Also edited for clarity.